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Vampy

This was not a Let's Talk About Rape Forum, this was a movie review...FFS some of you need to have a cocktail and get over yourselves.

Two drunk people having sex is NOT rape - it's college ;)

zamblee

"When a girl is so drunk that she has puked on the pillow next to you and can barely speak, she cannot give consent."

So if the guy involved is drunk as well, is he also being raped? Are they both being raped by the situation?

matthew

This is the stupidest debate I've ever seen on fourfour. Of course you can be drunk and consent to sex at the same time. How do I know? because I've done it LOL

matthew

Also another thing is that rape is contextual and the only person who knows for sure if it has happened or not is the person it has happened to- it's their call and their call only.

Magali

I think what I hate most about reading all these comments is that nobody is considering that he is absolutely obliterated and has 0 capability to consent as well. That puts a lot more ambiguity back into the situation than what everyone is suggesting.

metsa

Hmm, I suspect that if he was as obliterated as her, he wouldn't be able to perform. But maybe not. at the same time, it seems to be consentual (from what Rich says), and I do think that rape is too serious a charge to be thrown round lightly. Obviously, this is just a movie. and obviously, the director is deliberately blurring the line, perhaps to make people think and perhaps just to drum up interest in the movie. I don't think all these discussions can resolve whether a fictional scene, taken possibly out of context (since we are not shown the start of the sex apparently) is rape - there's too many unknowns. And I'm a woman and I've never been sexually assaulted, thank God. Also, I know my fiance would NEVER take advantage of me when I was drunk, I have a hard enough time convincing him I really do want it when I'm drunk, he's worried that it's only the alcohol talking and I'll feel used in the morning. So decent guys do exist and not everyone think sex with drunk people is acceptable.

Kerlyssa

Sure, being threatened into having sex isn't rape, because she said yes!

It's threads like these which make the movie disgusting, Posters, because it shows all the nice attitudes people have towards rape.

Which is that the girl really wanted it, that the girl didn't want it but that doesn't matter because This Is The Real World, Honey, should have said no, should have said no even if she was alone with a guy that scared the shit out of her and wasn't accepting no as an answer, should have said no even if she was with someone she trusted and therefore had no idea that she had to spell out No Rapies as a rule, shouldn't have passed out(vomiting and unconsciousness=consent), and all guys do it so it isn't rape.

The amusing thing is then people go and say, it's a good movie because it brings up the messiness in life, and then waaaah when the following discussion brings up that rape is bad. Because apparently they just wanted a DIFFERENT neat answer, that fucking unconscious girls is ok.

Jason

This conversation has devolved into complete nonsense. Rape is bad? Seriously? Thanks for the news bulletin.

What I wanna know is how many people are commenting here without even having seen the film. Because we might recall that we're discussing that right now and not the varieties of everyone's victimhood. Do people just google the word rape and jump into a conversation screaming "Rape is bad! Rape is bad!" with nothing substantial to offer on the actual thing we're discussing, which is a movie that has 85 minutes around this scene and a review that has paragraphs around it addressing that scene?

I mean, perhaps instead of sussing out Hill's intentions with the movie I should just go on about that time I was playing the in yard when I was 7 while my mother was sexually assaulted by a stranger that broke into our house inside? I think that would definitely be a very important thing to discuss in relation to this movie. Because ME! Me is more important than any actual insight anyone might have on the actual topic at hand. Jesus Christ.

The Savage

Drink/drugging yourself unconscious near a man who has obvious designs on your honor is like walking in Brownsville Brooklyn at 3 am with a hundred dollar bill hanging out of your fanny pack while looking at a map of Manhattan.

Do you deserve to get raped/mugged? No. Should you be surprised? No. Do you share some culpability for the circumstances that gave rise to your victimization? Yes.

Side-note: great how the queens college woman who falsely accused 5 men of rape gets a slap on the wrist.

The intermediate state between the obvious "brave new world" style dystopian future that awaits and the Victorian handkerchief dropping male-female relationship of the past is this absurd cocktail of moral outrage and soulless thrusting into one another.

Will

His schtick might be getting a bit old, but I happen to think Seth Rogan is pretty hot (well, not in this movie... but other ones). I'm glad we have dudes in movies who are on the chunkier side and still cute. I'm sick of looking at skinny hollywood guys all the time.

lm

You know, I couldn't care less about the rape debate going on here. What I got from the review, was that the movie was supposed to be a dumb comedy, but once you find out the main character is bipolar your opinion of him is supposed to change. Is it?
I am bipolar, and the idea of him doing ridiculous, manic things, and it being funny when he did them originally, and not so much after the fact...well that hits close to home. In my past I've done some 'funny' things, and after learning later it was do to a manic episode, you feel like shit about it. Almost like I'd rather just be considered a dumbass, douchebag, crazy 20-something than my doctor telling me its a 'symptom' of my disease. And also the "well he's bipolar so maybe its no longer funny"....does that mean his behavior is excusable? Well its really not. Anyone who is dxed bpd and takes meds (especially like Clonazepam) is on a short leash with their doctor. You beat the shit out of someone, and chances are you're going to the doctor or hospital asap.

I could see how it is interesting, comparing the other dumb movies and their dumb characters with no 'excuse' to their behavior. I don't find it refreshing, this added dimension to a stupid comedy (which remains a stupid comedy), because well, it gives us all a bad rep. Just like the Informant is going to. It's not a true or fair representation of bpd. But c'est la vie, it's just a movie.

cizmad

As long as we can agree that everyone who has ever had sex with a drunk person is a Rapist, I think we can go forward with consensus.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go put myself in prison for the four-year-long Rape Nightmare Parade that was College. I can only hope all of my sexual partners are also taking themselves off the streets - I know two of them are still Raping each other almost every weekend.

Look, Kerlyssa, I get that your perspective is something that people need to hear, but it is a hyperbolic reaction to the other, equally ignorant extreme, which is the idea that rape is only committed by masked strangers in dark alleys and anything else is just "boys being boys". I'm not, and never have been, arguing that fucking unconscious girls is okay, but I am arguing that there's a lot more gray area than everyone's liberal arts school Sexual Information Center ever allows. If two people who are plastered have sex (and lots of people who are plastered want to have sex) and one of them passes out in the middle, it doesn't make the other a rapist. Yes, it's a problem that there are girls who can be intimidated into sex, and there are sleazeball guys who will do it. But there are also guys who will have no idea that the girl is intimidated, or feeling pressured by his presence, that are one missed signal or unarticulated boundary away from being called a rapist for the rest of their lives, and that is also unfair.

Obviously the solution is communication, but sex is wrapped up in hundreds of lairs of personal and societal insecurities, so that's not going to happen easily or quickly. Right now the running jargon pretty much calls any ambiguous heterosexual situation Rape or Sexual Assault against the man, which is massively unbalanced (granted, that unbalance works in exactly the opposite way in a lot of conservative courts) and right now the paradigm seems to exclude Queer sexuality completely.

So we need to step back from the Rape label, I think, as a culture, then again every time I take that stand I get a lot of responses starting with "It's because of MEN like YOU..."

cizmad

Eh... just realized that I implied that I think your position is equally ignorant to the other extreme, which I don't. I do think it's equally extreme, but the other perspective is obviously the ignorant one.

Vera

Sorry, Rich, but here sits another one who loves your blog, reads it religiously, and was severely disappointed by this post. I didn't see Observe and Report, so I can't nitpick on the scene in question, but to say:

"if having sex with an obliterated girl constitutes rape, virtually every straight guy in America is a rapist"

is both ignorant and really, really depressing to me. Because unfortunately, yes, there are a lot of straight guys who think that's totally okay (gay guys too, for that matter), and when they see other men saying things like this, that only reinforces the idea in their heads. Having sex with a girl so drunk she can't possibly say yes or no with any awareness of the situation is absolutely rape. Is it different if both parties are that drunk? Possibly. But the implication in your post -- and, I believe, from what I've read about it, the movie -- is that the woman is far drunker than the man. That's absolutely not ever okay.

Here's a decent guide, Men of America: if your partner is so drunk s/he runs the risk of choking on their own puke and dying in the middle of the act,they're too drunk to say no.

liz

I'm glad you reviewed this. My husband and I saw it in the theater and LOVED it--and we both thought, "Well, 90% of America is going to hate this movie." Well done.

Bag It Tag It

N (and others) - we're not angry at Rich, and neither are our little dogs. We're angry at the constant marginalization and dismissal of rape victims in our culture. It exists outside of Reclaim the Night meetings; it's part of the fabric of our culture, which includes fluffy li'l pop culture, and we are allowed to be angry. Don't try and take that away from us with an eyeroll.

EZ Mac

Step away from the "rape" label? Why? Because it makes the poor men uncomfortable?

Here's an idea, cizmad: if you and your bros don't want to be called a rapist, how about you don't fuck women too drunk to consent. How about you try to find out when you're being intimidating, or pay enough attention to your partner to find out what the signals are. Or better yet, GET CONSENT. What in the world is so hard about that? IT REALLY ISN'T DIFFICULT TO NOT RAPE SOMEBODY.

Jason

So I guess we're not gonna talk about the movie at all then? Okay, I guess I'll go over the forums at RAINN and see if anybody's seen it there.

www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=656100197

Ummmm are you serious? Of coarse the movie wasn't funny - it sucked. Marketing aside, I at least expected to see a film with relateable characters and good acting, not a bad attempt at a Todd Solondz film.

Robert

I tend to really dumb guys do dumb things so it's funny comedies and I really dug Observe and Report. It's really well acted and the reveal halfway through the film really takes it to unexpected places. I don't think my brother has forgiven me for making him go when it was in theaters. I think he would have rather seen Paul Blart on DVD. But that's the risk of going to a really subversive, twisted film with anyone who doesn't know exactly what they're getting into.

moe

I'm pretty sure both Seth Rogen and Anna Faris actually referred to the scene as the "date rape" scene, which should tell you something.

That, you know, it's rape.

cizmad

I've never been called a rapist, EZ Mac. Maybe it was the Women's Studies and Sexuality and Society classes in High School, the training and working at planned parenthood in east Cleveland and for my college's Sexual Information Center during college, the year volunteering teaching Sex Ed and Sexual Health in public schools, or just dumb luck, but I've somehow managed to only have sex with partners I trusted and could communicate with, some of whom are women.

And... maybe it's just the internal backlash from having come through all of that education that makes me feel like the pendulum has swung way too far in the opposite direction, from "Women showing ankle are of ill moral fibre and are responsible for arousing the passions of the gentleman!" to "Henry is a rapist because Joanna says so, even though she grabbed for his junk, because only a rape victim knows when it's rape", but I definitely feel like it's ridiculous, and most of my BROS (those people I know that agree with me?) are also the hyper-sex-educated products of a liberal arts school with an unusual focus on the subject, and many of those bros are women.

And no, we shouldn't step away from the rape label because it makes the poor men uncomfortable, we should step away from it because if we keep calling all of the ambiguities rape, eventually we'll forget what rape actually IS - an intentional violation, not a mistake or a miscommunication.

I know it's easier to picture everyone waving the "That's Not Rape" flag as Tall-Boy chugging cap-wearing puka-shell-necklace-in-middle-school-having dudebros, but do the people on the opposing side of the argument the justice of not assuming we're all roofie-slinging morons?

Though, again, if you've ever had sex with someone who was drunk, and are willing to agree that you too are a rapist, then I accept your point.

cizmad

I might also point out that though someone has now included "having sex with someone when they're obliterated" as something done not only by straight men but gay men too, has it really even been suggested as a possibility by the "That is obviously rape" camp that women, straight or queer, are capable of committing rape?

matthew

Rich was not saying that taking advantage of a really drunk girl is OK. I think he was just pointing out that taking advantage of said drunk girl is only a rape if the victim says it is a rape.
I can't believe how incapable these moralists are of comprehending what they read.

matthew

And just to clarify, for all the moralistic types here, yes , it would be still be a rape even if the victim had drunkenly said yes and then felt raped afterward. That's just the chance you take when taking advantage of drunk girls/guys.

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